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Christians prior to Christ

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I was editing Ammonihah and the image is captioned with

The Martyrdoms at Ammonihah (John Held Sr., 1888), depicting Alma 14:8, in which members of the city's Christian minority are "cast into the fire".

. Given that Alma is prior to 3 Nephi and Alma 14:8 doesn't contain the work Christian, suggestion for a better caption?

And they brought their wives and children together, and whosoever believed or had been taught to believe in the word of God they caused that they should be cast into the fire; and they also brought forth their records which contained the holy scriptures, and cast them into the fire also, that they might be burned and destroyed by fire

Naraht (talk) 15:05, 5 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I'm by far not the expert with this, but maybe instead of Christian, use "believers of the word of god" to keep it in context to what it says. Thanks! Dmm1169 (talk) 01:18, 6 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Hi; as a major contributor to the Ammonihah page, I'm happy to explain. Referring to figures in the Book of Mormon as "Christians" is following how reliable sources in religious studies interpret the story and setting of the Book of Mormon. For examples, see the following (bolding added):
  • "pre-Christian Christians, who "talk of Christ, ... reojice in Christ, ... prophesy of Christ" centuries before his coming (2 Nephi 25:26).
    • Terryl Givens, By the Hand of Mormon: The American Scripture that Launched a New World Religion (Oxford University Press, 2002), 47.
    • John Turner, The Mormon Jesus: A Biography (Harvard University Press, 2016), 29 cites Givens and also describes Book of Mormon figures as "pre-Christian Christians".
  • In the New World, the migrants build a temple and follow the law of Moses much like the society they left in Palestine, but their religion is explicitly Christian.
    • Richard Lyman Bushman, Joseph Smith: Rough Stone Rolling (Alfred A. Knopf, 2005), 85.
  • the Book of Mormon asserts that long before the birth of Jesus there were Christians, who were taught by prophets to believe in a redeemer who would one day come into the world
    • Grant Hardy, Understanding the Book of Mormon: A Reader's Guide (Oxford University Press, 2010), 7.
  • Within The Book of Mormon, Christianity takes root in the Americas not only before the arrival of Europeans but also, more radically, before the birth of Jesus. In moments of prolepsis similar to those appearances of Pauline language that predate Paul, the Nephites embrace the teachings of Jesus and assume the title of "Christians" in advance of the gospels. [...] in the Book of Alma, supposedly produced around 73 BCE, Moroni prays "that the cause of the Christians, and the freedom of the land might be favored" (351). This is Christianity before Christ; the prophecies of The Book of Mormon, unlike those of the Hebrew Bible, are explicit in their designations of the Messiah to come.
  • Alma coming to preach his "new" belief in a Christian faith
  • the chief judge of Ammonihah makes it clear that the punishment given to the Christian converts was based on Alma's and Amulek's words
    • Michael Austin, The Testimony of Two Nations: How the Book of Mormon Reads, and Rereads, the Bible (University of Illinois Press, 2024), 133.
To the extent that having a setting with a Christian religion and worshipers of Jesus before his advent is time-bending, that is, if anything, part of the Book of Mormon's structure, plot, and point. As literary critics Elizabeth Fenton and Jared Hickman summarize, the Book of Mormon narrative's temporality is never anything but extravagantly nonlinear (their introduction to Americanist Approaches to the Book of Mormon [Oxford Unviersity Press, 2019], 1–20, here 7). Hydrangeans (she/her | talk | edits) 02:01, 6 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Not exactly. These guys believed in Jesus, but knew him as Yehowah or Yaweh. Yes, I am LDS, no, don't get into an edit war with me about this. Wikipedia has seen to much of those. 38.43.22.44 (talk) 05:47, 2 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
In many respects, my case in point: to insist that Jesus-believing Nephites and Lamanites can't be Christians because that would be anachronistic is to advance not an academic, neutral assessment of the Book of Mormon's plot but an apologetic, historicist assessment of it. Hydrangeans (she/her | talk | edits) 07:51, 2 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I think you have it backwards, both the idea that the Nephites and Lamanites existed and that they were Christian are apologist positions. The neutral academic assessment is that the Nephites and Lamanites did not exist outside of the BoM. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 21:01, 2 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Characters don't have to exist in reality for scholars to identify them as being Christian in the story. To use another example, Les Misérables's Bishop Myriel is, of course, entirely fictitious, and he is nevertheless a Christian character. Hydrangeans (she/her | talk | edits) 06:18, 4 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The IP is treating them as historical people, if you aren't I apologize. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 06:30, 4 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
ok. I understand. 38.43.22.44 (talk) 18:06, 4 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Discussion at RSN

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Wikipedia:Reliable_sources/Noticeboard#WikiProject_specific_reliable_sources

I don't know what the solution is for this, but I think this is probably in violation of WP:LOCALCONSENSUS. Or maybe not. Anyway, there is the discussion started.

jps (talk) 23:37, 15 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move at Talk:Capital punishment#Requested move 1 April 2024

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There is a requested move discussion at Talk:Capital punishment#Requested move 1 April 2024 that may be of interest to members of this WikiProject. RodRabelo7 (talk) 01:58, 13 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Good article reassessment for Martha Hughes Cannon

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Martha Hughes Cannon has been nominated for a good article reassessment. If you are interested in the discussion, please participate by adding your comments to the reassessment page. If concerns are not addressed during the review period, the good article status may be removed from the article. Z1720 (talk) 01:23, 19 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Good article reassessment for Fawn M. Brodie

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Fawn M. Brodie has been nominated for a good article reassessment. If you are interested in the discussion, please participate by adding your comments to the reassessment page. If concerns are not addressed during the review period, the good article status may be removed from the article. Z1720 (talk) 05:09, 30 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Incorrect capitalization policy on main page

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Until my edit just now, the main page said this:

However, this directly contradicts WP:MOS, which says this:

  • Mid-sentence and mid-article-title references to the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints should not capitalize the initial the[1] and should include a hyphen and a lower-case "d". Example: History of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints not History of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints

These two contradict each other regarding capitalization of the the, when occurring mid-article-title. Examples of each of the two styles:

I'm going to be bold and replace the guidance here with that of WP:MOS. But I'm happy to discuss or otherwise reach consensus if there are different opinions. Davemc0 (talk) 19:00, 30 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

  1. ^ See this RfC discussion.
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